Arena Discussion Thread, mk. 2

[Mikail]

This is the thread mentioned in the Arena welcome message. Please feel free to vent your concerns or call me names here.

[Mikail]

Actually, more like mk. 3.

[Xachariah]

Sure thing, Mister Stark. ... Norton. Man I'm bad at joke-namecalling.

[Soja]

Either enforce the IC only rule or don't. It's understandable and expected that OOC happens in the course of RP, but it shouldn't be so proliferated that a room becomes IC/OOC until "further notice."

If you're going to use such a lax standard, might as well declare the entire Keep IC/OOC.

[Kade]

That's ridiculous, Soja.  *Takes a pie.*

[Pitch]

Either enforce the IC only rule or don't. It's understandable and expected that OOC happens in the course of RP, but it shouldn't be so proliferated that a room becomes IC/OOC until "further notice."

If you're going to use such a lax standard, might as well declare the entire Keep IC/OOC.

At least it doesnt appear to be IC/OOC any longer...at least I think so. But meh.

[Han]

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both." - Nicollo Machiavelli.

I can't blame Pitcheh for the 'lax standard' of Arena, as it's unruly inhabitants tend to band together as one when threatened with being kicked for OOC. They act as one and determine the course of roleplay in the room. Unfortunately, however, this could potentially drive newcomers away. You should only give the populace so much power to determine what does and does not happen.

Kade doesn't run Arena, nor do any of the other regulars. TK's administration runs the Arena, and therefore determine the room's purpose as they do the server's rules. The room was originally put there as a room setting, not a hangout. If people want to hang out, they can make an Arena OOC room and join the three or four other rooms of that type. Otherwise, they have no business lounging about in room that's as valid a roleplay setting as 'Desert' or 'Forest'.

Theoretically, you could change everything to fit their liking. The AUP, guidelines for handling wild users, anything. However, we have those things to keep order. Yes, they are to optimize player experience, but the power balance between the user and the administration is compromised when you let a group of stubborn people determine the purpose of a room. Also, the things players want may not always be in the server's best interest. I could see if something was considered unfair or compromised the AUP, but they're going against a rule that's been instated for I don't know how long. Keep users should not be able to change rules that hardly trouble them. There is an easy alternative to this and they're simply testing power to see if they'll be forced into it.

I say they shouldn't change a thing. As I said before, they can clearly move rooms but they choose to go against the rules set for them, avoiding the easy alternative and instead opting to make the moderators 'budge' on the issue. This sounds like a power issue to me, and I don't think we should tolerate power shifts. The administration should put their foot down on the issue and point them in two directions: the Arena(OOC) room or the Exit link at the top right.

[-=Styles=-]

As far as I'm concerned, Pitcheh did the best she could while she was on trial. Things did seem to lighten up in terms of OOC, but not so much in the sense that some people are just intolerable.

I find it much easier to....not type anything, than to respond to someone's lame attempt at blatant idiocy. Sadly, though, this isn't always a shared concept. Keep in mind I'm no saint, but it's just a simple fact; staying quiet = less OOC

The trolls and troublemakers are dealt with at the discretion of the staff, good day, bad day, or anything thereof. So what if it takes a week for them to discipline someone who disregards the authority of a moderator....does it not still happen? Patience is another thing that's in lax around the Arena....and probably the most abundant of all things is the hypocrisy. If Ahrimar is going to involve himself in this thread, as I hope he would, then he could much better explain, in grand detail, how hypocritical people are when it comes to the OOC and Arena Bashing when the OOC is asked to be stopped.

I don't mind a little OOC while I'm RPing. I don't mind when my posts get raepedededed by a few lines of OOC while I'm RPing. It's not that big of a deal. However....it is an utter annoyance when you post several paragraphs....and within fifteen or less seconds, it disappears behind a flood of single line bickering from two idiots who aren't courteous enough to take into consideration they're not the only ones there.

[Familiar]

Since changing the message upon entering the room to being an IC/OOC chat, more OOC has happened from what I've seen during U.S. evening hours and has forced people to find other rooms such as IC-Arena. I contribute to the spam but tend to shut up when people do RP cause most of the time I'm interested in what they have to write.

As far as a solution for the current happenings in the channel, I have none. I figure if people have respect for the original intent of the chat they'd keep quiet and take it to whispers. Or an outsider messenger.

[Auvic]

Thing is, Familiar, two of the options that people defending the amount of OOC in the Arena have tended to push are these, in regards to people who didn't want to see so much OOC / didn't want to RP while other people are OOCing, etc:
1. Use /ignore OR
2. Create a different room, and RP there.

Both are equally legitimate, as far as technicalities go, so the creation of other rooms simply goes to prove that the people who had defended such courses of action were correct, yes?

In any case, I've only one thought to add to all the current discussions about OOC, one that I think I've said before.
Let people OOC in the Arena so long as it does not bother anyone. And by 'bother anyone', I intend for that to be interpreted as 'When someone asks you to quit the OOC and stfu, you do so.' Ideally, when people are posting to each other, anyone else can OOC as they so wish, as long as none of the RPers asks people to shut it. From that point on, I would cut down the OOC to maybe[/b] allowing people to greet newcomers, etc, but that's it.
One warning, then a kick. And repeated kicks as necessary.
When would the soft ban on OOC be lifted? When it is established by the RPers that RP is no longer continuing.


So then, there's the question of 'If someone wants to just get everyone to shut up, then what? Can s/he just make one post to nobody and proclaim that everyone should quit talking just because?'
Addressing that is a bit more difficult, and I'm pretty sure the only real sort of solution is to allow decisions of this sort to be left up to the mod's - Pitch's - discretion. Blah blah blah, 'nobody trust mods' 'mods r korrupt lololo', and such - but as far as a concrete rule goes, there's really no way to make a rule to differentiate someone making a troll post from an RP post, because each can use the exact same post. Only difference is that one is antagonistic, and one is productive.

Yes, a rule of this sort would be heavily dependent on Pitch's presence, etc - but then again, any of the mods could be called upon to reinforce this, which would make it simpler to enforce.
...And then again, if something like this was stuck into the AUP and just floated around as a general rule - "If you are asked to stop OOCing by an RPer in a non-OOC room while RP is currently in progress and fail to comply, you will receive a warning and then be kicked as necessary" - it'd probably cut down on a bit of the OOC issues pretty much everywhere.

Or so I'd imagine.

[Kade]

TL;DR VERSION AT THE BOTTOM.

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both." - Nicollo Machiavelli.

Aw, dude, I like Machiavelli. Don't go there.

I can't blame Pitcheh for the 'lax standard' of Arena, as it's unruly inhabitants tend to band together as one when threatened with being kicked for OOC. They act as one and determine the course of roleplay in the room. Unfortunately, however, this could potentially drive newcomers away.

The 'inhabitants' are pretty factionalized. I've never seen them all band together. Maybe two, three, or four people at a time will push the same point, but that doesn't mean the entire arena is wearing Team-Arena jerseys. If the arena acted as one, this thread would be unnecessary as we would have already come to some sort of agreement.

TK's administration runs the Arena, and therefore determine the room's purpose as they do the server's rules. The room was originally put there as a room setting, not a hangout. If people want to hang out, they can make an Arena OOC room and join the three or four other rooms of that type. Otherwise, they have no business lounging about in room that's as valid a roleplay setting as 'Desert' or 'Forest'.

If the administration didn't want to do this, then I don't think they would be... doing this. For the most part, with the exception of a few trolls, arena-goers do quiet down when RP is happening. I've noticed that people are reticent to quiet down for people that are just throwing out a random post in hopes that it will bait someone else to RP with them. Arena-goers generally respond better to people who have, prior to posting, talked with other(s) OOC in order to line up a RP. This is a pretty common practice in the arena. With or without realizing it, two random people negotiating the terms of their upcoming fight sort of 'prepares' the OOCers for the coming posts. This doesn't mean you *must* make a public spectacle of your preparation to RP. One lonely post may or may not cause everyone to quiet down, but when it's followed by *another* post from another RPer then the likelihood of virtually everyone shutting up skyrockets.

The administration should put their foot down on the issue and point them in two directions: the Arena(OOC) room or the Exit link at the top right.

Question, do you come from a lower-class family? Not an insult. Genuine curiosity. I had a lecture about a year ago about the sociological differences between lower class values and upper class values, and this just reminded me of it.

Anyway, I don't think that's a good idea. TK needs bills paid. In a way, RPers are kiiiind of 'customers', and customers are always right... right?

Thing is, Familiar, two of the options that people defending the amount of OOC in the Arena have tended to push are these, in regards to people who didn't want to see so much OOC / didn't want to RP while other people are OOCing, etc:
1. Use /ignore OR
2. Create a different room, and RP there.

Both are equally legitimate, as far as technicalities go, so the creation of other rooms simply goes to prove that the people who had defended such courses of action were correct, yes?

This has been occurring lately because someone labeled the arena an 'IC/OOC' room in the arena's greet message. This made some troubled OOCers feel entitled to OOCing even while RP was happening, exacerbating a problem that otherwise would not have flared up so badly. There was a lot of, "But it's an IC/OOC room now. I can do what I want," going around. Mod(s) have since changed the greet message, thank goodness. I don't think IC_Arena or Arena2 rooms will be made anymore except for by the handful of people that have always prefered to fight in private. Regardless of 'the problem', these people relocate anyway.

In any case, I've only one thought to add to all the current discussions about OOC, one that I think I've said before.
Let people OOC in the Arena so long as it does not bother anyone. And by 'bother anyone', I intend for that to be interpreted as 'When someone asks you to quit the OOC and stfu, you do so.' Ideally, when people are posting to each other, anyone else can OOC as they so wish, as long as none of the RPers asks people to shut it. From that point on, I would cut down the OOC to maybe[/b] allowing people to greet newcomers, etc, but that's it.
One warning, then a kick. And repeated kicks as necessary.
When would the soft ban on OOC be lifted? When it is established by the RPers that RP is no longer continuing.

One, Pitcheh resigned. Two, that's pretty much what happens in the Arena anyway. Minus the kicking and banning, the arena-goers are RPers, and they treat others how they would like to be treated. Cases where OOC obnoxiously refuses to stop are few and far between, and they're usually the result of a very small amount of troubled, repeat offenders. I don't think a 'mod presence' needs to be enforced on *everyone* just because of a few -- pardon my french -- asshats that could be /ignored. If anything, whisper Moondog or something about the specific person who needs to be shushed. He's usually quick to respond. I can't speak for the other mods. Mikail seems understanding, though.

The rest of what you said, Auvic, was pretty thoughtful. The issue with concrete rules and how they're abused by trolls was made pretty clear during Pitcheh's mod-trial-thing. I also want to bring up the point that some OOC is constructive. People will often discuss a RP before actually getting to posting it out. In hindsight I should have saved logs of this incident, but Pitcheh and I got into a pretty heated argument about a case where she kicked and silenced someone who was only trying to OOCly 'set up' a fight RP -- as in negotiating terms like first blood, submission, etc. They then proceeded to take their fight elsewhere, resulting in less RP than there could have been for the Arena that night. To be fair to her, she did it because someone who was RPing at the time specifically asked the OOCers to shut up, and she felt she needed to intervene. Or something like that. She can clarify her reasoning on this thread if she wants, and I don't want to get in trouble for misrepresenting her. Sorry, if I did. A little bit of patience would have gone a long way.

I just think that case illustrates how complicated some situations get. A concrete set of rules will never, in my opinion, be versatile enough to handle the Arena justly. Short of a Philosopher Mod whose wisdom we can all trust, I don't think there will ever be a suitable mod for the Arena. People aren't perfect, and mods aren't either. I do think, however, that the social rammifications for being an obnoxious asshat are enough. Interrupt RP enough, piss people off, and you'll be yelled at by the 'hyper-argumentative' Arena populace. It generally works on anyone with a sense of shame -- for everything else, there's Moondog (or some other global mod). /Mastercard


tl;dr version: Post, and people usually stop OOC'ing. You may want to /ignore a rogue troll, but that happens in the Forest as often as it does in the Arena. Bonus points if you get someone to post with you. People really shut up for that. Auvic, thumbs up. I think we can agree that laying down strict blanket rules just opens up loopholes for trolls to abuse. For this reason, I think mods *generally* hurt more than they help -- in the Arena, at least.

[-=Styles=-]

I know the intentions of this thread are good....and I understand the goal that's trying to be accomplished....but at this point it's almost moot. We already know the veiw points of practically anyone who has already participated in the last two threads about this topic. By now....it's pretty much common sense. Having a mod around could benefit, simply by having someone there to monitor the situation continuously, but at the same time it's a victim of it's own potential success. We know why, and if you don't, then you've misse dout on anything before hand involving this subject....and need to do some research. But if people were just more considerate, then there'd be no need for one.

Everything is just a parrot of the last two threads that were up, everyone holding their same views without compromise.

[LoX]

You guys DO realize that there is a whisper function for OOC, correct? This could all be avoided if you lazy bastards would use it to set up your roleplays and functions. That's what it's there for. Furthermore, the customer is not a customer if said USER pays nothing for the services that are being received. Otherwise, this is the Keep Staff's baby and thus, what they say is what goes. End of discussion.

It'd be just as easy to simply use the /wh function for your OOC, which neither disturbs the other users and only clutters the whispering parties' screens. Just sayin', there's a myriad ways of going about solving the issue without making yet ANOTHER IC/OOC room, when there's already two rooms set up for that function, along with the possibility of making your own user generated rooms.

[-=Styles=-]

You guys DO realize that there is a whisper function for OOC, correct? This could all be avoided if you lazy bastards would use it to set up your roleplays and functions. That's what it's there for. Furthermore, the customer is not a customer if said USER pays nothing for the services that are being received. Otherwise, this is the Keep Staff's baby and thus, what they say is what goes. End of discussion.

It'd be just as easy to simply use the /wh function for your OOC, which neither disturbs the other users and only clutters the whispering parties' screens. Just sayin', there's a myriad ways of going about solving the issue without making yet ANOTHER IC/OOC room, when there's already two rooms set up for that function, along with the possibility of making your own user generated rooms.

Wow....really? You wasted your time saying this? Because...like....it didn't need to be said AGAIN.

EDIT: Also....since you seem so well informed....people do donate money to keep this place up and running, so the staff doesn't always have to pay out of their own pocket. Jump to more conclusions, and it's going to land you nowhere but within your own one-track-thought definitive rhetoric.

[Kade]

Dear LoX,

A lot of RPs do get set up in whisper. It's hard to know when a RP *does* get set up in whisper because... it was set up in whisper, so you probably couldn't see it. However, you'd know when a RP is *not* set up in whisper because you can actually see it in public chat. Consider what you may not be seeing. Just because you don't see whispers doesn't mean they're not happening. Logic, please.

Personally, a lot of my RPs get set up on MSN. Not quite whispers, but the idea is the same.

Where have you been when it comes time for monthly donations? Users do pay. I know more than one Arena-goer has donated. Adam, Manjio (who is out on a Navy tour atm), etc. I meant to use 'customer' loosely. I realize that the staff doesn't exactly get paid, so it's not exactly a 'for profit' business, but nonprofit businesses do exist, and even nonprofit businesses need to meet their fixed costs in order to keep operating.

I'm guessing that the larger the regular TK population is, the more ad revenue they might be able to get? I don't know. I'm not online-business savvy (yet). Whether that's true or not, I'd imagine that mods care about the wants and needs of the TK population to some degree. If they didn't, I don't think they'd invest their time in being a mod for no pay. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm a business economics major. I think of everything in terms of business. Sorry.

Sincerely,
Kade.



Edit: Jester beat me to it.

[Han]

Kade, I won't answer your question about my family's income. That just seems like a low blow. As for 'three or four people pushing their point' that sounds like a euphemism for people in Arena volunteering to be kicked on the count of one person's beef with a moderator. Yes, people do tend to wear 'Team Arena' jerseys because a lot of them want their way, and OOC effects everyone. Regulars at Arena do stand closely on this issue, from what I've seen.

Also, as Familiar has said, people have been drawn to Arena(IC) rooms. Some people are drawn away from Arena entirely. It's ridiculous that we should settle for less when people are pushing buttons to avoid an easy alternative. I've seen posts in there cut and drowned by OOC, especially if an argument happens to be going on. Furthermore, I shouldn't need a post from you or anyone else for my own to be respected. If I choose to post, I expect it not to be drowned out by the incessant OOC in the room. You might think that's pmpous, but I'm sure you'd ask of the same respect for your post. Also, in the event someone chooses to argue with a troll, your ignoring them doesn't guarantee the silence of the room. They'll still babble on and on until it becomes impossible to ignore so many people at one time because they may or may not post after the distraction is gone.

I'd also like to mention that TK doesn't need to cooperate and change THEIR site for a renegade clique. If you all choose not to follow the rules, then you shouldn't be here to begin with. I doubt they'd even leave TK, especially when there is the alternative of making an OOC room for Arena which is much more logical and convenient for everyone. Whispering to negotiate fights or even negotiating them in an Arena(OOC) room would be far more rational than what you propose. There's a power balance in TK, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, and if TK chooses to abandon it's conventions for a few uncooperative users, it in turn abandons it's authority to satisfy an arbitrary want. Just because your presence brings the money doesn't mean you run the chat, it's the administration here that busts their ass to fix coding, deal with trolls, manage the place and keep people like you coming and out depending on what changes are made.

I see no reason for them to budge for you, when you sign on THEIR chat to roleplay. You have an alternative in front of you, if you choose not to take it, then I think you should gracefully bow out from even coming. Their rules, their chat. Might not be agreeable for you, but in no way is this threatening your roleplay experience. In short, there's hardly any reason to raise this much of a stink about it.

[LoX]

You guys DO realize that there is a whisper function for OOC, correct? This could all be avoided if you lazy bastards would use it to set up your roleplays and functions. That's what it's there for. Furthermore, the customer is not a customer if said USER pays nothing for the services that are being received. Otherwise, this is the Keep Staff's baby and thus, what they say is what goes. End of discussion.

It'd be just as easy to simply use the /wh function for your OOC, which neither disturbs the other users and only clutters the whispering parties' screens. Just sayin', there's a myriad ways of going about solving the issue without making yet ANOTHER IC/OOC room, when there's already two rooms set up for that function, along with the possibility of making your own user generated rooms.

Wow....really? You wasted your time saying this? Because...like....it didn't need to be said AGAIN.

EDIT: Also....since you seem so well informed....people do donate money to keep this place up and running, so the staff doesn't always have to pay out of their own pocket. Jump to more conclusions, and it's going to land you nowhere but within your own one-track-thought definitive rhetoric.

And you wasted your time replying to this...because? I shouldn't dignify your ad hominems with a response, but I was making a generalized point that just because someone frequents a FREE site, does not make them a 'customer.' I've been around The Keep on and off since late '97, early '98, so I know how the place stays afloat. I don't need a condescending butthurt childish response if you can't manage civility. Therefore, lurk more, please.

Lastly, considering I've only recently become a regular user again, I obviously haven't donated anything for quite some time, considering I wasn't USING THE SITE.

If I continue to engage in using the site, then of course, I'll do my part in supporting what Rook and Web are building here.

Dear LoX,

A lot of RPs do get set up in whisper. It's hard to know when a RP *does* get set up in whisper because... it was set up in whisper, so you probably couldn't see it. However, you'd know when a RP is *not* set up in whisper because you can actually see it in public chat. Consider what you may not be seeing. Just because you don't see whispers doesn't mean they're not happening. Logic, please.

Personally, a lot of my RPs get set up on MSN. Not quite whispers, but the idea is the same.

Where have you been when it comes time for monthly donations? Users do pay. I know more than one Arena-goer has donated. Adam, Manjio (who is out on a Navy tour atm), etc. I meant to use 'customer' loosely. I realize that the staff doesn't exactly get paid, so it's not exactly a 'for profit' business, but nonprofit businesses do exist, and even nonprofit businesses need to meet their fixed costs in order to keep operating.

I'm guessing that the larger the regular TK population is, the more ad revenue they might be able to get? I don't know. I'm not online-business savvy (yet). Whether that's true or not, I'd imagine that mods care about the wants and needs of the TK population to some degree. If they didn't, I don't think they'd invest their time in being a mod for no pay. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm a business economics major. I think of everything in terms of business. Sorry.

Sincerely,
Kade.



Edit: Jester beat me to it.

Apparently, my point was missed entirely. Maybe I should simply clarify. Yes! Of course they want people to share and enjoy what they've built, I didn't mention it because it should have been an understood issue without it having to be brought up. Common sense would dictate to me, however, that sharing their work with users does not equate to being doormats for every user's whim, which is what I'm trying to say. It's a cyclical argument, which is why I felt the need to re-stress the point that items and tools are already in place to handle peoples' wants/needs in regards to roleplay set up, OOC shenanigans or whatever tricks the newer users are into these days, which is why I feel this whole argument is pointless.

But hey, trolling the forums is boring work, right? It's easier to make giant misconstrued assumptions about a poster based on some rather huge misconceptions about said poster's intent in the first place, am I right?

[Pitch]

Two cents: I thought an arena mod would work, but people are (as Jester said) intolerable to a fantastic degree when you tell them to stop their blathering and boasting in the middle of RP. And really, thats all I did. I gave warnings over and over, then kicked, then banned. I even only moved to shut them up during RP only, which could have gotten -me- in trouble, actually. I'd say I was actually not very Draconian about my role in the place. And folks -still- whined. What -needs- to happen is strict enforcement on the room by a global. Not saying a baby sitter but someone to be in there more than every blue moon to tell people to shut their traps and deal with it if they don't like it. Thats one reason having a mod for the room doesn't work...people don't listen if you aren't a SysOp or a global, to be honest about it. Because they know they wont face the threat of a chat-wide/server ban on more permanent terms means that they can pretty much go buck-wild.

But yes, I agree. TK should not be catering to the needs of OOCers in an IC room. They can make an OOC Arena if they need to. it's not that hard. And as for me shutting people up while they discussed a fight? Pshaw. I remember politely asking/warning three times only to have a certain someone start trolling me out of indignation that I would deign to ask them to take it to whispers.

Oddly enough, I'd be willing to try it again if I were a global, but that I would be considered for the role is highly unlikely as I see it. Though I will say not seeing Visage around has been a breath of fresh, laundry scented air.  Thanks to whoever popped that little pustule, finally.

[LoX]

Pitch, were you asked by another user to intervene when you did? If so, I would consider that wholly within your rights to perform your Modly duties and execute them how you see fit, as a representative of the staff as a whole.

Even if you were not requested and the greeting at the time was still strictly IC, I'd still consider it performance of your job requirements.

(Couldn't you just warn whoever was trolling you, then kick if they didn't behave?)

[Gigi]

How about a mod with an Iron fist? But the mod also has to be prepared for endless trolling, him / her being the victim of such things. Basically, someone that gets the job done by whatever means necessary.

Idk. Just felt like saying that, regardless of the consequences. <3

[-=Styles=-]

Usually things work out better if you do research. So yeah....you can deal with what I said...because you've done no better by responding and reiterating a point that's been made like what...100 times over. Nice try though.

Smarter, not harder.

/aimed @ LoX since he completely missed the entire points that was made.

[Pitch]

Pitch, were you asked by another user to intervene when you did? If so, I would consider that wholly within your rights to perform your Modly duties and execute them how you see fit, as a representative of the staff as a whole.

Even if you were not requested and the greeting at the time was still strictly IC, I'd still consider it performance of your job requirements.

(Couldn't you just warn whoever was trolling you, then kick if they didn't behave?)

Thats precisely what I did. And yes, I was asked by another player (two actually) if I could come back in the room and silence the OOC storm.

[Pitch]

How about a mod with an Iron fist? But the mod also has to be prepared for endless trolling, him / her being the victim of such things. Basically, someone that gets the job done by whatever means necessary.

Idk. Just felt like saying that, regardless of the consequences. <3

Tried the Iron Fist thing, too. It results in massive kick/bans and the nicknamed I earned myself. "Pitler", I believe? That was after I stopped being nice about it all.

[-=Styles=-]

Pretty sad that even with some of the people who were ACTIVE during the original debate for the Arena modship....directly contributed to the problem.

[-=Styles=-]

Pitcheh...you did a good job, by my standard at least. My Honest Opinion, I'd have liked to seen you become a permanent moderator for the Arena, had you not disliked it so much at the end.